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Loch
SpectatorI said that I wouldn’t post on this thread anymore. I am only disobeying my own rule to thank Andrew for his friendly comment.
We are all friends or colleagues and I am a sentimental old fart.
Loch
SpectatorI am not being sarcastic when I say that to say the BMC are wrong and you are right is a perfectly arguable position. Perhaps you should post on the BMC website to that effect – maybe you will.
You imply that circa 40000 people have been killed by covoid. In fact 35000 have died with Covid not necessarily of it.
Of course covoid isn’t the same as driving a car but that doesn’t mean a comparison is invalid. If everyone who was killed over a year in car crashes died on a single day , then that would be newsworthy and would cause an outcry. The fact that it happens undramatically day by day means it goes almost unnoticed. This distorts our statistical analysis and hence our risk assessments. But it is simply the case that over any reasonable time span, car crashes will cause many many more deaths and terrible injuries than covoid. Should we stop using cars purely for our own pleasure when it could kill other people – of course not. Should we stop going to crags (which is probably only marginally more “dangerous” than going for a country walk) purely for our own pleasure – I have the humility to say I don’t know.John – a close reading of your post clearly indicates that you do JUDGE it wrong to be climbing (as does Andy) in spite of your protestations to the contrary.
It would be much more straightforward to simply say so. It is a perfectly valid position.My position on all this is very boring . I’m a “don’t know” fence sitter! The only reason that I am posting at all is just to counterbalance (playing the devil’s advocate) the opinions of more influential club members.
This sort of discussion (like Brexit) can get emotional. Not good.
Being on the fence like me sounds painful but it is a comfortable place to be.We are all friends and colleagues and I want to keep it that way so I would like to stop posting on the subject. That sounds like getting in the last word and then running away- sorry!
Love to you all
LochSpectatorI take on board many of the comments made by Andrew and John. But why then do the BMC say climbing is OK? I have talked to Andrew about this and he essentially says they are wrong but they are the most authoritative source of advice available to us. I think it is quite reasonable to follow their guidelines.
I don’t know Oli but if he is under 70 with no underlying health conditions AND if he goes to a crag which will not unduly upset the locals AND if he climbs well within his limits AND if he generally makes a sensible and considered decision then why not?
You may argue that any climbing will involve breaking the (often silly)rules. Let us not get too precious about this. Every time I go running I probably get within 2 metres of someone. When I go for a country walk I touch stiles and gates that others have touched. We should minimise such contacts but not let it stop us from taking reasonable risks.
People are poor at risk analysis. I would advise you never to drive a car again if it is only for recreational or social use and I will consider you morally culpable if you do. You are a potential killer. Even if you consider yourself a careful driver you can still be involved in a crash or hit a child who runs out into the road. It is utterly irresponsible – the numbers of deaths caused by covoid (even in the worst case scenario) will be tiny compared to the deaths caused by car crashes. Just think about involving the emergency services which will have to attend a fatal crash. I am sure that you know that you are far more likely to die in a crash on the way to a crag than you are if you climb (especially well within your capabilities) Be rational and sensible – leave the car at home. It is your moral duty.
On a more serious note, I am sure we can all agree that although we can state our position but if someone else decides to act differently then we must respect that decision.SpectatorYou juxtapose a female under 30 with a 57 year old man implying that the latter is much more likely to die if he contracts covid.
This may be true but the fact remains that if you are under 60 with no underlying health conditions then the chances of dying if you contract covid are very small. That is not to minimise that this is a nasty disease and we must take reasonable steps to protect ourselves and others.
This is nothing to do with whether you should climb or not.SpectatorThanks very much for organising this Nathan – it was brilliantly done and must have been very difficult.
Very convivial meal with a good turn out.
Loch -
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